Welcome to the Retail Rundown, your go-to weekly podcast where RETHINK Retail teams up with industry experts to discuss the news and trends defining the world of retail.

This week’s episode is all about cryptocurrency. After Walmart announced last week it was seeking to hire a lead to develop its digital currency strategy and product roadmap, we wanted to know if and how the retail industry should be preparing for increased consumer adoption of crypto.

Host Chris Ressa, chief operating officer of DLC Management, leads the discussion with guests Matthew Maher and Ben Weiss.

Matt is a futurist, speaker and founder of M7 Innovations, an NYC-based creative firm that works with brands and executive teams to conceptualize, create, and execute on solutions that leverage Artificial Intelligence AI, AR, VR, and Voice Technology.

Ben is the CEO of CoinFlip, the world’s largest crypto ATM provider with over 2.5K units across the US. Recently, they placed #1 in Crain’s Fast 50 awards for fastest-growing companies, with $50.6MM in revenue for 2020.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know by subscribing to our channel and giving us a 5 star rating us on Apple Podcasts.

TRANSCRIPTION

Chris Ressa:
Hello, Retail Rundown listeners. I’m Chris Ressa, your host for the week. I am super excited to be here. Joining me today, are Matthew Maher and Ben Weiss. Little bit about me. I am the chief operating officer at DLC Management. We own shopping centers across the United States. We’re one of the largest private retail real estate owners. Matt is a futurist speaker and founder of M7 Innovations, a New York city based creative firm that works with brands and executive teams to conceptualize, create and execute on solutions that leverage artificial intelligence, AI, AR, VR and voice technology. Ben is the CEO of CoinFlip, the world’s largest crypto ATM provider, with over 2,500 units across the US. Recently, they placed number one in Crain’s Fast 50 awards for fastest growing companies with $50 million in revenue for 2020. Welcome to the show guys.

Matthew Maher:
Thanks for having us.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah, thanks for having us on.

Chris Ressa:
Matt, Ben, thank you. I’m glad you’re both on today because we are going to be focusing our discussion on cryptocurrency. Not necessarily an expert in crypto, I do own a little bit in some NFTs. I’ve been playing, growing but I want to open the show with a bit of news. Recently, Walmart announced that it is seeking to hire a lead to develop its digital currency strategy and product roadmap. According to their careers page, the new role seeks to provide leadership with ways to identify technology and customer trends. Also, Amazon posted a job opening last month for a digital currency and blockchain product lead to develop its crypto strategy. Before we dive into retail, I want to take a moment and just stop there for a second. Amazon, Walmart, both hiring people around crypto and blockchain. What’s your guys’ takes on that? And we’ll start with you, Matt.

Matthew Maher:
Yeah, we talk about where crypto is today. I think there are two things really focus on. We’re getting a lot of adoption and there’s some real utility. You just said it right, with Amazon and Walmart, two of the biggest players that are trying to build divisions around it but I think Bitcoin especially, has been a great gateway drug into crypto and people can understand the value, like a fiat currency with a Bitcoin. And we’re seeing not just Amazon, Walmart, you’ve got the PayPal’s of the world, you got Square with Cash App. Even Microsoft, certain sellers on Etsy that are starting accept Bitcoin as payment. That adoption is slowly starting to grow. And then there’s just a ton of utility. Not even some of the altcoins, we talk about Ethereum and smart contracts. As you say, yeah, buying NFTs now is perfect but I see a world in the future where, whether it’s a home purchase and a mortgage or a car purchase, that a smart contract is perfect for that. I think between adoption and utility, crypto is definitely on the upward trend.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah. And just to chime in there, I think that in the future, and we’re seeing it right now, every company is going to be involved in some sense with cryptocurrency or at least the blockchain technology that underlies it. And I think it’s going to be very interesting to see how companies like Amazon and Walmart approach cryptocurrency and digital currency.

Ben Weiss:
And I know recently in the past couple years, a lot of the big banks have either started to get into it or have discussed a desire to start planning how to get into it but I think in some ways, companies like Amazon and Walmart are better positioned to provide services and encourage adoption because of the distribution they have. With Walmart, obviously the amount of locations they have, the supply chain logistics and everything like that. I think a company like Amazon especially, even though it’s a huge company now, still has that sense of moving quick and innovation in a way that the big banks don’t. I’m really keeping an eye on how Amazon does this and what direction Amazon goes in. And I know Amazon is a trusted company, I think it’s one of the top trusted companies by consumers in the US, while the banks necessarily aren’t. I think a company like Amazon getting involved, has got a lot of attention and has also had retail investors taking a look at Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as well. This is just huge news that no one can ignore.

Chris Ressa:
I think that it is huge news as well, a lot to unpack there. I got a couple of follow-up questions from that. My first question as it relates to that, is why would retailers like Walmart and Amazon want to be pushing the envelope to get into digital currency? In your guys’ opinion, is it about them generating another revenue stream or is it about a more efficient currency for them to have, rather than the US dollar? What do you think it’s more about, in your opinion? Go ahead, Matt.

Matthew Maher:
Yeah. I’ll start there. A couple things that I think we can unpack when it comes to a player like Amazon and I’ll stick on Amazon because Ben was talking about it. You think of them as a company, in 2020, they did about 386 billion in revenue. There’s an Amazon credit card, it’s not unheard of that a lot of companies that are big will have these … Like the Target card, the Amazon card. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Amazon wants to explore the ability of one day creating some type of Amazon token.

Matthew Maher:
There’s that type of world, when you have so much revenue coming in and so much value you extract from Amazon with the prime membership, they could be possibly exploring that because you have repeat buyers all the time going back there, they can create inherent value in their own token. And that’s just one avenue they might explore. I also think to your point Chris, they might just want to make it for another ease of use, right. It comes to a point now, where if someone wants to spend with cryptocurrency, who are you to not accept it? It’s just another form of payment. And it’s another way to not lose drop-off on cart when someone wants to check out with say, a Bitcoin but they can’t so now they fall off. I’m sure Amazon is approaching it from just a multitude of different avenues because rising tide carries all ships and it’s definitely something that now is ubiquitous or becoming ubiquitous in the world.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah, just to chime in there. Amazon actually has an Amazon coin that they made, I think in 2013 or 2014 and it’s really more of a digital payment method or a virtual currency than a cryptocurrency but right now, it can only be used to purchase software under apps, in-app purchases and things like that but they came out with this in 2013 or 2014, so obviously pretty early on. And I think that might be the first place that they look in regards to cryptocurrency and that area because they do have some experience here. And I think it’s a natural place that they would look first but that’s just what I would do if I was them, knowing that this is already an area of the company that has some experiencing and that people have been using this Amazon coin now for six-plus years.

Chris Ressa:
Very interesting, I didn’t know that about Amazon. I’ll wrap this section up with … Right now and I know it’s a guess but I’m looking for a guess from both of you. Right now, at least to me, in America and this is so anecdotal but in the circles that I’m in and the places I read, it looks like majority of crypto is being purchased at the moment as an investment vehicle versus a utility for payment. And my question is, when do you see that switching? We talk about future, when is the future now, for cryptocurrency? And I know you could say it’s today but I think where I’m going, is when is it now from the amount of people that are using it as an investment, which to me seems significant, are actually using it as a utility of payment? Right now, for me personally, I’m adding to my Bitcoin account and my Ethereum and some NFTs regularly but quite candidly, it’s more just an alternative investment, slightly fun. I’m still paying with my credit cards and cash and debit cards for all of my purchases.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah. Just to chime in there because we do hundreds and hundreds and thousands of transactions every single month and you are correct, our data, even at the ATM’s, which is more likely to be used for let’s say, payments for goods and services or sending money back home to friends and family. We still see a vast majority of the purchases be for investment. And I think that’s for a couple of reasons. First off, Bitcoin specifically is not economical for small purchases. No one is going to be buying coffee anytime soon with Bitcoin. The way the fees work is it’s better for larger purchases and it can never handle the amount of transactions as Visa, for instance.

Ben Weiss:
And in the US, the dollar at least works good enough. And we have enough of a payment system in place where it doesn’t make sense to use Bitcoin to buy stuff. And I think in the US, it’s more of a digital gold, an asset but I think in countries where you really have bad government or hyperinflation, like in Venezuela, in Zimbabwe and places like that, you’re seeing it being used more of a payment system but I think that it’ll be a while in the US before cryptocurrency is used as a payment system but hopefully over time as some … I think another thing too, is the user interface and the user-friendliness on the payment system has to get a little better and the user experience always lags a couple years behind the underlying technology. I am optimistic in the long run but I don’t think it’s going to be a payment system immediately in the US in the next couple of years.

Matthew Maher:
I think there needs to be a little bit … And it’s this oxymoronic when talking about a crypto but there needs to be a touch more stability. And if you look at especially in the US government right, they’re trying to put in language in an infrastructure bill to try to harness. And I think it’s not even accepting, they have to fully understand it first. And I think the volatility is something that Ben makes a good point on.

Matthew Maher:
You look at the 52 week high or low of Bitcoin from 64,000, it started at 9,000 up to 64,000. I think what happens is with that type of volatility, things like NFTs are intrinsically tied to whatever Ethereum is trading that day. You think your NFT is worth something and it should be, like a piece of traditional art but if Ethereum goes gangbusters, then you feel like it’s going to be worth so much more, even though it should stand on its own just as that piece of art. I think as long as that volatility exists, it’s really hard to make it feel like it’s stable, as Ben said, as a payment system of, “I’ll just use my Bitcoin for a cup of coffee.”

Matthew Maher:
Once there’s a little more acceptance with most governments like the US, then it’ll start to stabilize a little bit more and then it’ll be more top of mind of something of, “Okay, sure. This is a currency I have that I can use for payment.”

Chris Ressa:
You say a while, you guys can … I know we’re not on video but you can see my facial hair because we are on video but this recording’s not. Is it before I’m fully gray or is it definitely after that?

Matthew Maher:
You look young, so the only variable in there is how long it’s going to take you to go gray. No, I think … And Ben probably is going to be a better take on this, I would say … It’s growing so fast. It does feel in a way of a [Mar’s Law 00:13:46] where we tend to overestimate the effect of a technology in the short run and then we underestimate its effect in the long run. Cryptocurrency is not going away.

Matthew Maher:
I think it’s going to be sooner rather than later but I lean on with Ben thinks.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah. I think that it’s inevitable in the long run but we keep overestimating when it’s going to happen in the short run. I think that is going to happen at some point but especially in the US too, if you use your crypto to purchase something … You could technically owe a capital gain there. I think there needs to be a little more clarity. I think there needs to be a little less volatility and then there’s an inherent tension between something being an asset and something being a currency.

Ben Weiss:
If you think something is going to go up, you wouldn’t use it to buy goods and services, right. I think that there is an inherent tension between it being an asset and a currency. And I think that at least for … If we’re talking about everyone using a cryptocurrency to buy coffee and just normal things throughout the day, I don’t think it’s going to be Bitcoin anytime soon because Bitcoin doesn’t have the technological capability to handle the amount of transactions, like a Visa, at least unchanged. Those transactions will have to be second layer off chain or potentially a different cryptocurrency, like a stablecoin. I think a stablecoin would be great for normal everyday transactions. And then Bitcoin would be more like an asset or your savings account. I think that’s a potential way it could play out.

Chris Ressa:
Interesting. One of the things that I think to get retail adoption outside of the … And when I say retail, just the use of crypto as a currency, is to get the user experience you mentioned before, enhanced. I purchased some of the DeadHeads NFTs, that collection. I’ve purchased some others, I’ve purchase Bitcoin. I’m technologically average in the world of technology and I found it pretty complicated.

Chris Ressa:
I have a Coinbase account. Now, people are saying you need a wallet. And then I’ve got to buy an NFT. I had to go to MetaMask and get a MetaMask account. And I’m so over accounts, I don’t want any and I think Americans are over accounts. I got to have this account, that account. When do we think this … I think that’s a big part of it. If it was super, super easy, adoption would happen quicker. When do you think we get to the … It’s easier to use as currency. Forget about the economics of it that doesn’t make sense for coffee today but just the ease of use, is that in the works right now for the people who don’t know, is that being worked on and who are these people that work on it? What are they? I don’t know, Ben …

Ben Weiss:
I can go first on that one. In general, I think there’s a couple of things going on. First off, tech people make tech products for other tech people. That’s just how tech people think. I think from the start, most things are made for other tech people. And then over time, people come in. I would say the user interface, a good user interface probably lags about three years behind the actual underlying technology.

Chris Ressa:
Got it.

Ben Weiss:
Bitcoin, let’s just say 2014, 2015, I know it’s been around longer than that but that’s when a lot of people started getting involved in it but you really didn’t have good wallets till 2017, 2018. That’s typically the trend. And I think the great thing about Bitcoin is like, “Be your own bank.”

Ben Weiss:
… which is awesome but for a lot of Americans, a lot of people throughout the world, what you said, they just want all their stuff in one place. You shouldn’t need 117 different accounts and passwords for all your crypto or your NFTs or things like that. I think the wallet providers are obviously a big part of this.
Ben Weiss:
I think custody, people who are getting involved in custody and there’s a lot of regulations when it comes to custody, which are holding some innovation back but I think some people love that you’re your own bank with cryptocurrency but for other people, you want someone else to custody your funds or your cryptos or you want it all in one place. And even now, you’re starting to see indexes like the Bitwise, where it’s a basket of the top 10 coins, so you don’t have to hold it yourself. I think I’d be looking at the wallet providers and then I’d be looking at the people who provide custody, knowing that there’s a lot of regulations that are holding back companies from getting involved in custody. But I think that for crypto to be used as an everyday payment system and to really have mainstream adoption, not everyone wants to have custody of their own coin. And you have to get everything in a one-stop shop or a one-stop place for everything crypto-related, at least for some people.

Matthew Maher:
Yeah, Ben makes a great point. I’d say if a bank gets robbed, if Chase gets robbed, I have FDIC insurance, great that I’m covered up to an X amount. If your MetaMask wallet gets robbed, you can go to Reddit and you might have some people that’ll help you out but it’s your best bet, the better angels and Redditors. That’s a great point that yeah, some people don’t want to be the custodials of that but a big point too, is I think we have our north star of what great frictionless payment is. And I say that’s Apple Pay and Google Pay is … Let’s use Apple Pay. The ability that, whether it’s your washer, it’s your phone, you’re a tap away from behind a lock screen, no app needed and the payment is made and it’s processed. That’s a north star.

Matthew Maher:
I think when you get to that point of no friction, where it’s behind a lock screen, it’s simple tap and it’s choosing to pay with whatever coin or altcoin or crypto you want to use, I think that’s where we want to get to. What it really comes down to is, let’s look to the gatekeepers. It’s going to be Apple and Android, they own the entire market. I think when they start to accept these external wallets that can live within the Apple Wallet, live within Android Wallet and it’s just another multi-modal way to pay, I think that’s where we need to get to because I deal with this with consumers all the time. They’re very fickle, right, “If it’s going to take me five steps to get to payment, when it could literally just be one step and one tap … ”

Matthew Maher:
A majority of consumers will just opt for the one tap, instead of just going those five extra steps that Apple or Android might make them take. To Ben’s point, it will take a couple of years but I think once the gatekeepers allow more of this, then it’ll rise.

Ben Weiss:
Another thing to point out too, even before crypto and regardless of crypto, the US has actually always been behind other countries in terms of ease of use on the payment system. Even when it came to the credit cards and chips and all of that stuff, regardless of crypto, the US has typically lagged behind. And in some ways … Nigeria is more advanced in a payment system and people are used to just using their phone and tapping it and everything like that, using their phone as their bank and having less friction than they are in the US because they basically skipped a couple of generations of technology. It’s counter-intuitive but the US has actually historically lagged behind other countries, even countries in places like Africa, that you wouldn’t think of, the US has lagged behind in payments technology.

Chris Ressa:
Interesting. I want to bring it back and connect the dots to retail a little bit more. All my clients are retailers and so I have a passion for retail and do a lot of homework on retail. The biggest thing right now that you see as it relates to payments and retail, whether it’s PayPal and a million others, what they’re getting involved in are these abilities to have partial payments at checkout on their e-commerce websites and some potentially bringing that back in the store. That seems to be the biggest buzz right now. I guess my question is, we talked about Amazon and Walmart, whether it’s an e-commerce brand only, an omni-channel brand or pure brick and mortar brand, outside of Amazon, Walmart, Target and these behemoths, what’s the chatter with other retail brands, as it relates to cryptocurrency being a part of their brand? Are things happening or is it way too early for them?

Matthew Maher:
I can jump in for the high-end.

Chris Ressa:
Sure.

Matthew Maher:
With high-end retail, we have a big luxury client. A huge piece is authentication. When you think of big ticket items … And this goes back to what Ben said before, you may not buy a cup of coffee for a dollar or $2 but when you buy the $5,000 handbag, the $50,000 watch, there’s a level that you want to know that obviously, that’s authentic. There are counterfeit markets obviously, all across the globe. There’s no better authentication than a blockchain. I think in high-end retail, there’s this exploration of saying, “Okay, how can we lean into that? How can we use something that we know can digitally authenticate something?”

Matthew Maher:
… as opposed to as it exists today, it’s the hand-printed card with a number that sits within the bag that says, this was made in Paris and from this person and it’s hand-signed, which is great. And we know that that’s certified and authentic but I would argue maybe that’s not as authentic as on the blockchain, knowing it’s irrefutable. On the high end, I think there are tons of conversations we’re having with, “How do you authenticate?”

Matthew Maher:
And same thing with NFTs. I know there’s a lot of buzz right now but … Not just NFTs but what is the digital equivalent when you do purchase that high-end item? Is there something that comes with it, whether it be the piece of art or that digital experience that comes with a physical product? On the high end way, I think authentication and these digital experiences for high end products is definitely a big conversation. And I’m sure Ben can probably chime in for the other side of the coin.

Chris Ressa:
Huh, that’s fascinating. I had no idea.

Ben Weiss:
I 100% agree on both the underlying technology and the authentication, whether it’s NFTs or other things. I think that you’re going to see the blockchain used more and more and more because it’s way more credible than a certificate of authenticity or serial number. Even if you look at the high-end art world now, probably 10 to 15% of things are fraud and experts have actually, if you look at the studies, have had a hard time distinguishing whether something’s real or not. I think it’s a no-brainer. Because we have ATM’s all over different retail stores and we haven’t seen much demand for let’s say, using Bitcoin as a payment system in convenience stores for a bag of chips but where we have seen some demand for involving cryptocurrency, is the higher-end items, jewelry stores, car dealerships, real estate, high-end fashion. I think you hit the nail on the head, that you might see a bifurcated market where a lot of this is used in the higher end, big ticket items but not in the everyday, more inexpensive items.

Chris Ressa:
Got it. You’ve hit that point home a lot. And I think it’s an important one Ben, that I’m certainly now going to consider, as I’m thinking about things. At the moment, the punchline that I’m getting from you is that at the moment, it’s much more efficient for higher dollar, higher ticket items. And we’re a little bit a ways away from it being an efficient use of currency for small ticket items. Helpful.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah and that makes logical sense. Do you care if there’s fraud over $3 coffee? Not so much. Do you care if there’s fraud over a $20,000 handbag? Yeah, that’s a big deal.

Chris Ressa:
Right, right. Okay. Well, this has been incredible. What other things haven’t we talked about that are top of mind for you all, that are at this intersection of cryptocurrency and retail that you think is important to mention? Go ahead, Matt.

Matthew Maher:
Yeah, I’ll start. I think for retailers, just advice for them how they start to think of how they’ll approach it, I think a lot of retailers need to have an open mind and they just need to start to I think, accept. And when I say accept, I mean philosophically and not just accept it as a payment. I think you really have to go down to the consumer experience and that’s the world I live in. We go through e-com, in the past 10 years, two-day shipping used to be this amazing thing, this unbelievable thing. You’re willing to pay this subscription fee to Amazon just to get something in two days. And frankly, now that’s table stakes. It was two days and then it’s one day and now it’s how many hours it’s going to take. Instacart’s building an entire business around that.

Matthew Maher:
We’re just in a world now where friction is eliminated. You get anything however you want it. And I think for retailers, they just need to start to think about that, the last thing you want is cart drop off. And if that is going to happen because you’re just unwilling to accept these certain cryptocurrencies, then people are going to just abandon their cart because they don’t want to use their fiat currency and they want to use Bitcoin, then you lose there. And if you’re not going to be able to authenticate if you’re a high-end retailer, you might lose there.

Matthew Maher:
I think for retailers, you really just have to go to the customer experience and realize they can get what they want, when they want, exactly when they want it. And that’s helped with innovation but at the same time, I think you really just have to be accepting philosophically and then actually start to figure it out into your processes because I think between what Ben and I have been saying, while it could have been overestimated, crypto as a whole, it is going to be underestimated in the future. And Ben makes great points, that we’re actually behind in the US. You look at all different economies across the world, so much easier to accept it. And that’s where we’ll eventually get to. Yeah, having an open mind and an open wallet, no pun intended.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah, I think you have to. If you’re building a business and you’re in retail, you have to build it for the future, not necessarily today. If a retailer’s thinking in their head, “Only 2% of people want to buy in cryptocurrency, it’s not worth integrating a wallet or doing whatever systems I have to put in place to make this happen.”

Ben Weiss:
I think that you will lose in the future because while it might only be 2% today, I don’t know if it’s going to be in three years or six years or nine years but it’s going to be way more than 2% then. And you want to put these systems in place. You don’t want to be playing catch up as a retail retailer or in any business. I think once you’re behind, it’s very hard to catch up. And then another thing that … Well, just from my personal experience with our ATM’s in retail locations, I think one of the cool parts about having a physical business in the crypto space where … Coinbase is great, Gemini is great but you don’t necessarily see it in your individual lives because it’s online. When we put these ATM’s in store locations and the store owners see 3, 4, 500 customers coming into their bodega to use the cryptocurrency ATM, they naturally start getting an affinity for cryptocurrency and they consider taking payment in cryptocurrency and things like that.

Ben Weiss:
I think that it’s important to continue getting the customer-facing things out there and some of the more physical things out there, to get that adoption. And I think that retailers … Again, to your point, customers can get what they want when they want. And you have to start with that as your fundamental assumption. Adding something like cryptocurrency that might seem like it won’t help you that much today, is going to be a huge difference in the future. And you’re going to already have everything in place. I would say the same thing and encourage every retailer to have an open mind.

Chris Ressa:
There’s a million tangents I could get on from there. Ben, I am going to take one. A part of what you said there concerns me a little bit because when you start mentioning building for six, nine and further in the future, the reality is, the amount of retailers that have the infrastructure and balance sheet to do that versus the amount of retailers and e-commerce brands that don’t, is extremely disproportionate. And it’s why today, the amount of digitally native brands only that actually are profiting is very small, whereas many brick and mortar brands are profiting. And I think that it’s always this challenge. You have to build for the future but there’s this balance where people do have to profit for today.

Chris Ressa:
And so there’s only so many dollars that can go toward building for the future, unless you’re Target, Amazon and Walmart and some of these ginormous brands that have the balance sheets to do that. Even some of the venture backed e-commerce brands, they started to open up stores as an omni-channel and it’s a profitable venture but also at some point, you can only tap the piggy bank so many times and go back to the VCs. At some point, they’re looking for yield. And I think as technology advances and there’s just another thing that has to get invested in, it makes it a challenge for the scale of retail and e-commerce brands, right. And we’ll take either one, the small brand that’s doing a couple of hundred thousand revenue on Shopify or the brand that’s, as you mentioned, the little bodega, it’s a challenge to make the innovations that are needed or as you say are needed for the future six, nine years, a lot of these … Whether it’s the Shopify e-commerce brand or the local bodegas as you characterized, they’re looking to make sure they can make it for the weekend.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah. Well, it’s never easy to be the small guy in any business but I think the way you compete with the bigger guys who have the balance sheet and hopefully there’s more and more of this around but if you can find turnkey solutions where you don’t necessarily have to innovate yourself, you just have to buy the product or integrate the product … I think Amazon is going to invest a lot of money and build it out in their own unique way, where if you’re a smaller competitor, I think you look … You don’t try and build it out yourself, you look for existing solutions that are already out there. And unfortunately, we talked about a lot of these solutions aren’t quite there yet, the ease of use isn’t there yet. The user interface isn’t there yet but if these smaller businesses can find turnkey solution and not have to reinvent the wheel and not have to do heavy lifting, I think that’s how you can compete with some of the bigger players but there is always in every business, the tension of survive today and invest in the future.

Chris Ressa:
Sure.

Matthew Maher:
And Chris, I’d say too, just to double up on Ben, there are some tools that can make some small businesses dangerous, right. You can get Square at point of sale. You can have Plaid that can help with some digital payments. Shopify was going to put easy, one-click and check out and use their fulfillment center. There’s all these tech tools that essentially can get you very close to parody with an Amazon or a Walmart. And it’s really just being smart and strategic about how you set up that tech stack and how you leverage them because I think those are the arming the rebels type companies that help the small businesses fight the big ones.

Ben Weiss:
Yeah, a hundred percent. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel. There’s a bunch of ready-made solutions out there, essentially. And hopefully there’ll be more and more as this field continues to advance.

Chris Ressa:
All right. Well, okay. I want to thank Matt and Ben for joining us today. I want to thank the Retail Rundown for allowing me to host today and thank all the listeners out there for joining us. Matt, where can the listeners find you after this, after they hear you today?

Matthew Maher:
Yeah. I might be at M7Innovation.co but who wants to go to a website? And I also don’t have thousands of ATM’s around the US, which is cool, which Ben has but every Thursday at 8:00 AM, I put out a weekly video series called the M7 Innovation Break, the latest on tech, media and innovation. And that’s on LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, you subscribe on the website. That’s the best place to find me and that’s where the latest you’ll get in crypto and all the good stuff.

Chris Ressa:
Ben, where can listeners find you?

Ben Weiss:
My personal handle on Instagram and Twitter is @bencoinflip. CoinFlip’s handle is @CoinFlipATM. And if you are a retailer, a brick and mortar location and you want extra passive income and you want hundreds of extra people in foot traffic in your location, we do place ATM’s, as long as the location is open long enough hours in a safe and secure location. That’s been a way that some of these mom and pops and smaller locations have been able to get some extra income, get some extra customers. And we’re always open to working with brick and mortar retailers on that as well. That could be an interesting opportunity for anyone listening.

Chris Ressa:
And if anyone’s out there, my handle is @ressaonrealestate and I have a podcast called Retail Retold. Check me out any of those places. Thanks so much everyone.