September 16, 2019: Target’s new loyalty program, JCPenney’s category moves, Nordstrom Local comes to NYC.

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TRANSCRIPTION

Julia Raymond:
Our guests today include Trevor Sumner and Carol Spieckerman. Trevor is the CEO of Perch, a recognized leader in in store product engagement, marketing, interactive retail displays in augmented reality. Carol is a RETHINK Retail advisor and president of Spieckerman Retail. A globally recognized retail consulting training and speaking firm.

Julia Raymond:
Carol and Trevor, thank you for joining us today.

Carol Spieckerman:
My pleasure. Great to be here.

Trevor Sumner:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Julia Raymond:
So the first retailer we’re going to speak a little bit about is Target. They seem to be in the news a lot recently. Casual shoppers and brand fanatics will soon have something to celebrate because after more than a year of testing, Target announced its plans to roll out its free loyalty program. They’re naming it Target Circle. And it rolls out nationwide next month. So, members can expect 1% back on purchases, personalized deals, early bird access to promotional sales, and the opportunity to vote on which local nonprofits they’d like to see Target give back to. So along with these added benefits, the new program will help the retailer widen its own data circle to include customers that do not have the red cards and those who are simply hesitant to download Target’s app.

Julia Raymond:
Carol, what do you think of Target Circle? Is this new loyalty program a bullseye for Target? Where’s your head in this?

Carol Spieckerman:
Well, initially, Julia, I was thinking maybe not a bullseye so much as a one to many arrows in the quiver. But it does look like Target has put a lot of thought into this and they’ve taken some really meaningful steps to avoid confusion, which I think was the number one peril of doing this.

Carol Spieckerman:
First of all, it’s good that they didn’t just layer Target Circle onto Cartwheel. You know, ’cause Cartwheel has wide Adoption, people are familiar with it, they love it. They integrated Cartwheel into Target’s Circle and then they renamed Cartwheel Target Circle Offers. Now, that doesn’t actually roll off the tongue, it’s not a fancy name.

Julia Raymond:
Right.

Carol Spieckerman:
I think it’s the right way to go because it allows Target to expand the benefits but without creating multiple disconnected loyalty brands, which really gets retailers into trouble when they do that.

Carol Spieckerman:
Also too, I love that there’s an automatic registration built into it. Anyone that has a Red Card, anyone that already participates in Cartwheel, they’re automatically registered. I think this is going to be critical for Adoption and for sort of continuity between the programs, rather than expecting people to figure it out and sign up for that program by itself. And then when you look at the 1% back, that seems like kind of a, not a very impressive figure. But when you combine it with the 5% savings that a lot of the folks that are participating in red card already get, you know, it adds up.

Julia Raymond:
Certainly.

Carol Spieckerman:
So I think the way they’ve structured it, it’s like this plus this plus this, and they’re looking at it as a suite of solutions and benefits that are connected, which I think is the right approach.

Carol Spieckerman:
So they’ve done the groundwork, but I think from this point, what they’re going to really need to do is make sure they have a tight communication plan in place that’s going to bring customers along. You know, they need to be talking to customers through the app, through email, through in-store signage, through store associates, to make sure that the benefits are really clear and that customers are really clear on how to use this program and benefit from it.

Julia Raymond:
I agree. I think it’s probably a give and take. So they’ll get more data from customers, but they might even potentially lose money with this program at first if there is a significant Adoption offering that 1% cash back on purchases.

Julia Raymond:
Trevor, what are your thoughts?

Trevor Sumner:
I think this is a really smart move and I think it’s really all about the fact that this program is solely driven by mobile Adoption, right? You need a mobile app to participate in this program. So as part of this, you’re converting Cartwheel and existing Red Card customers into your mobile app download strategy, where Cartwheel has, I think, about 27 million users. That’s a big number for most retailers, but leaves open a large market segment for Target. And if you think about all the mobile apps that you are downloading, you suddenly get access to a wide variety of data about your customers, where they purchase even outside of Target. And I think this is also about building a community that ties in-store to online. Once you have that mobile app and you think about Target as a place where you do electronic transactions, not just physical transaction, you’re going to see a sizable lift on the eCommerce side of the house, not just because you have the data for what in-store purchases you can now message and personalized messaging to shoppers to convince them to go to Target.com.

Trevor Sumner:
But also just kind of bridging that gap. So I think this is a brilliant move. I think I can trust it. I think yesterday Walgreens announced that they’re taking a completely different approach and offering 3% as part of the new Apple card and Apple Pay program. And so I think of that as an interesting contrast because, on one hand, that 3% is pretty valuable when you compare to most credit cards. On the other hand, one of the things that Apple does is it really hides customer transaction data. So while you’re attracting a demographic that is Apple friendly, which is typically affluent, young, hip, cool, right? You’re losing a lot of the data.

Trevor Sumner:
And so if I look and compare the two approaches here, certainly bringing people to the store by seeming hip and cool is great, but having a data in your own community is much more powerful. And I think one of the things that I really liked about it was being able to chance to vote on Target’s community giving initiatives in the app, which really makes it feel local and personalized in a way that Amazon will never be able to do. And so it really ties in local communities, mobile app, data, and then offline to online shopping behaviors.

Julia Raymond:
Yeah, I love your recap and I agree that the ability to give back, it does add that next level of personalization. We see that with some regional grocers. For example, Lucky’s allows you to get a coin if you bring your own reusable bag and donate it to one of the different charities that they’re sponsoring.

Julia Raymond:
So I do like that. And I think that was a huge distinction that you pointed out with that Target rolling out their own program to avoid some of the data issues that other retailers are facing when it comes to offering everything through Apple Pay versus their own app. Is that something that you think will hinder adoption? ‘Cause I will say from my personal experience, I have gone into Target and been a little displeased with having to open the app to get my Cartwheel barcode to scan, and then also having to go back and like get the Apple Pay out and do that.

Trevor Sumner:
For me, I mean, I love my Apple Pay. The notion that I don’t have to take out my wallet and then search for the credit card and then you put it in the chip reader, which just going to wait 15 seconds, I can just and tap it. I think those behaviors are going to become just more natural and less friction for customers. But there is going to be an Adoption curve, but which is why they’re creating an incentive for it and for that mobile app adoption. So I think they’ve balanced this really well, in terms of, what are the costs for launching a community and mobile app such as this to drive the types of adoption that I think that they’re going to see. Yeah, there will always be people who don’t like to use it.

Trevor Sumner:
I think the data is another issue. Target famously used data to put out that a teen was pregnant before they knew. So there’s always the issues of data. But I think ultimately people have given up on this notion of privacy. And if you can use the data in a way that makes my shopping experience that much better, by focusing on rewards that are relevant to me, focusing on email marketing from Target.com that is relevant to me, ultimately the benefits a will outweigh any notion of loss of privacy.

Julia Raymond:
Absolutely.

Julia Raymond:
And it’s been really impressive just to see the amount of adoption that they’ve gained with their Cartwheel app and the consolidation they’ve done with their apps over the years. So exciting stuff.

Julia Raymond:
Carol, did you want to add anything else?

Carol Spieckerman:
Well, I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times, the big question is, in retail, is always buy, build or bridge. And as Trevor pointed out, some retailers are taking of a bridge approach by using Apple Pay and sort of linking to other platforms. And then others are taking more of a build approach, to where they want to own that data and sort of own the ecosystem. And neither is wrong, it’s just different decisions and retailers are shifting between them for different reasons.

Carol Spieckerman:
Sometimes they’re actually using bridge platforms and partnerships and then they’re saying, “You know what, now we’re going to take it in-house because we want to own the data.” So there’s a lot of migration between those strategies. But for Target, to me, this program is very much geared toward existing customers that already trust the Target ecosystem and the Target digital environment. So to me, they’re just kind of building a pathway to a new suite of solutions for those existing customers, rather than trying to reach out to completely new customers through Target Circle.

Trevor Sumner:
I think Carol makes a great point here, that it’s a spectrum, where everybody wants their own community. The question is whether you can execute on it.

Trevor Sumner:
And so at first you may ride on other platforms, but everybody wants to eventually get that. And Target has the scale, the customer loyalty, and the ability to execute and create this community for themselves. And so as a result, I think they’re going to see outside gains because of this. And when I look at people writing on other platforms, I think it tends to be shortsighted. You really want to be at the center of the customer community, the customer brand identity. And you just need to find a way to bridge the way there to that ambition.

Julia Raymond:
Agreed.

Julia Raymond:
I think that they probably have a competitive advantage already from all the work they have done. And this is a launchpad in a way for even more personalized offers that every retailer is trying to eventually get to with one-to-one marketing.

Julia Raymond:
The next retailer in the news, yet again is Penney’s. So just in time for those fall fishing trips, it launched a new in-house line of men’s outerwear. Rolling out in 600 stores across the country, it’s new St. John’s Bay line includes windbreakers, waterproof pants, vests, and woven sweaters. So coupled with the new apparel line, they’re also launching a new store within a store concept. It’s going to be called the Outdoor Shop, and will feature products from St. John’s Bay and other select outerwear brands. And the Outdoor Shop debuts in 100 stores and online on October 4th. Meanwhile, it’s chief merchant, Michelle Wlazlo, says the retailer is moving into this category as quote, “America spends more time outdoors” unquote. To recap, just the other week, the news was about recycled clothing with threadUP. And this week it’s about the great outdoors. So is Penney’s grasping at trends in an attempt to escape oblivion, or will this category bring a breath of fresh air?

Julia Raymond:
Trevor, I’m going to pass that on to you first.

Trevor Sumner:
It’s a tough one, right?

Trevor Sumner:
I’m rooting for all retailers. And I believe there’s a renaissance happening with brick and mortar retail, but I just don’t see how JCPenney works their way out of this. They’re at high risk at defaulting on their billion and a half loan balance. And now it’s hard for me to see that. Certainly private labels is an active type of strategy that everybody seems to be migrating to for two reasons. One is because you can capture more margin, but two is because you want exclusive items that only shoppers can get in your stores, right? If you’re carrying just the same products as everybody else, it’s hard to compete on anything other than price, where you have a disadvantage against people like Amazon. I think the private label strategy makes a lot of sense and JCPenney has seen some strengths in men’s apparel.

Trevor Sumner:
However, I just don’t think that this is going to really move the needle enough. Now, I think the street may disagree with me because after the announcement of this, the stock price went up about 50%. It went from $0.80 To $1.20. That said, it’s down 10% today. So I think people are just reacting to whatever news there might be across JCPenney. So as I said, I’m hopeful, but if you’re looking for outdoor wear and this notion of sustainability, it’s really hard to compete with Patagonia and REI and all the content they’re putting out there. Or the fact that they’re only giving there their fleece vests to companies who have sustainable … like they won’t sell it to you as a branded company unless you have sustainable programs. The types of things and community and nonprofit work that they do is just much stronger and the quality of the products is higher. So I think they’re aiming at a different customer base, the REI’s and what Patagonia’s of the world, but I just don’t see it.

Julia Raymond:
Certainly.

Julia Raymond:
I don’t see a lot of a market share being switched over to them. But their current target market, the people that already shop at JCPenney, do you think it’s good for those customers? Like they’ll spend more?

Trevor Sumner:
Yeah.

Trevor Sumner:
Look, I mean I think what JCPenney is focused on right now is increasing profitability even while sales are decreasing year over year. So sales dropped 7.4% compared with year over year. But part of that is they’re trying to get out of the deal and discount mindset. And launching your private label is a great way to do that. I just think it’s too late, I think you need something like this across the entire store. And they’re just not capitalized to make massive enough changes to truly change their brand image.

Julia Raymond:
Interesting note on that they’re only rolling out in 100 locations at first.

Julia Raymond:
Carol, what are your thoughts on Penney’s move into outdoor?

Carol Spieckerman:
Well, I think whenever you’ve got a retailer like JCPenney that’s struggling, you know, the tendency is to meet every announcement with, “Is this going to save them? Is this going to save them?”

Julia Raymond:
Right.

Carol Spieckerman:
Kind of separating it from that conversation, I like sometimes to extract that piece of it just to look at what’s happening with that particular program. And there are a lot of things I like about it. For one thing, this is JCPenney really putting a stake in the ground on an emerging category. You look at categories like athleisure that I’ve had a really good run, a lot of people made a lot of money on it, but it’s getting kind of played out and reaching a saturation point. So you’ve always got to be looking for that next big thing.

Carol Spieckerman:
And I think outdoor crossover is definitely there. And I don’t think JCPenney has any delusions about beating a lot of outdoor retailers at their own game. That’s what I don’t think … I don’t think it’s about that. And Trevor mentioned the private label aspect, very smart. For a while, JCPenney actually had some of the most highly developed, high equity, multimillion dollar, if not billion dollar, private brands. They put them in the back seat for a while. And now they’re bringing them back, which I think is very smart for the reasons that Trevor mentioned. I’ve been forecasting a renaissance of private brands for a while and now it’s happening and accelerating because of the points that Trevor made. The margin and also the differentiation, so very, very good move on JC Penney’s part to go back to private brands. Also, too, St. John’s Bay is a well-known private brand at JCPenney, so I think it was also smart to position this almost as a spin-off of that with St. John’s Bay Outdoor.

Carol Spieckerman:
Because instead of getting arrogant and saying, “Oh, we’re going to create a brand from the ground up and build it from scratch,” they’re actually harnessing that existing equity and brand recognition from St. John’s Bay. I also like it though that they’re, again, sort of not being arrogant and saying, “Oh, we’re going to replace all those national brands with this new private brand.” Instead, they’re merchandising some very well-known national brands in with the program, which I think is going to really help it and create some balance. Brands like High Tech that are respected and well known in the outdoor space and in the performance space. I like it, too, that they’re launching the brand in advance of actually launching the shops, which will be in a few weeks. So that’s going to give the opportunity for St. John’s Bay Outdoor, the brand, to sort of gain some traction and awareness in the stores before they actually place it in those dedicated shops.

Carol Spieckerman:
And I like that they are doing dedicated shops. Because you don’t want that product getting lost in the shuffle. Come fall and winter, there are going to be a whole lot of flannel shirts and vests on the floor and you don’t want this program to get drowned out and all mixed in with that. So hopefully they’re going to be really playing up that dedicated space and merchandising it and maintaining it really well. I think it checks a lot of boxes, it’s very relevant for the times, it’s a good move for Penney’s, which is not to say that it’s going to necessarily save the day. I think also, too, it was prudent to launch it in 100 stores as a test. That’s not a small number of stores, but it’s also not chain wide, in case it doesn’t work. But hopefully they’re prepared to pull the trigger really quickly if it performs and roll it out to all 800 plus stores, because they really need something like that to move the needle.

Trevor Sumner:
Yeah. I totally agree with you.

Trevor Sumner:
I think in terms of execution and strategy, I think they’re doing the right things. I think everything you said is right and I think what they’re doing is smart. I also think with 100 stores, you can target the areas where it’s most likely to be successful. And so you can build upon that success and I’m not sure they’re going to do the store within a store concept across 860 some odd stores. I think it’s important as retailers look at these programs to help target and segment across the stores that matter most to them and to test concepts before going to the ones that where you don’t have as many inherent advantages. We’re seeing that with the Macy’s growth 150 strategy, which started as growth 50 then 100, then 150 and it’s moving quickly. But they’re learning a lot along the way. And so, yeah, I agree. I think it’s well designed, I think it’s smart, and I’m hopeful for them. But I’m pessimistic about the outcome.

Carol Spieckerman:
We’ve got some, I guess, you know, Best Buy is a big turnaround story, they are out there. But it does remain to be seen if they’re going to pull all the elements together. Right now, they’re having to eat a lot of spinach, but I am glad to see that they’re not just focusing on that and that they are continuing to look at some creative merchandising and brand partnerships because they got to do it. They’ve got to keep the interest going regardless of the state of affairs.

Trevor Sumner:
Absolutely.

Trevor Sumner:
And I would contrast Best Buy versus JCPenney, right? Because the Best Buy success was built upon having a strong market position where everybody knew what Best Buy stood for, an electronic. But augmenting that with a price guarantee to Amazon and really training the sales associates to be helpful, to provide employee programs so that you actually have happy employees that you’re talking to. And there’s a great deal of expertise in Geek Squad and installation and service so that their go to for electronics. What is JCPenney’s go to? Is it really going to be outdoor wear? I find it hard that it’s focused enough and sufficient enough to change their brand a meaningful way.

Trevor Sumner:
And I think that that to me is the contrast between the types of turnarounds that we’ll see successful and those that will struggle, even if they do the right things.

Carol Spieckerman:
And I can see that.

Carol Spieckerman:
But you look at Kohl’s, they’ve been doing some impressive changes and it’s been making a difference for them. And I don’t think that JCPenney is saying, “Hey, this Outdoor Shop is going to solve all our problems.” I think we’re going to be looking at … I mean there was thredUp, as Julia mentioned, not that long ago. I think we’re going to see a series of announcements from JCPenney, especially now as the holiday shopping season starts to ramp up. And then they’re going to hope for sort of a cumulative effect. So it’s going to get interesting.

Trevor Sumner:
That that that would be a wise strategy.

Julia Raymond:
We’ll see what the holiday season brings. I do like Carol’s point to athleisure was a huge trend, it’s a bit saturated now. And this could be the crossover that brings in some of those holiday sales because it is a bit discounted compared to other retailers, especially the niche players in the outdoor wear market.

Julia Raymond:
The last bit of news we will cover is about Nordstrom. So exciting stuff. After two years of testing in LA, they are finally bringing its local stores concept to New York City. And it’s a pivot from the imposing scale of traditional stores. However, Nordstrom local is small format, inventory free shop, it offers personal styling services, you can get alterations, stroller cleanings, and of course online in-store pickup. So with a heavy focus on in store services, local customers will be able to return products purchased online from Macy’s and Kohl’s, and a spokesperson said that Nordstrom local visitors spend, on average, two and a half times what the traditional Nordstrom customer spends. And it’s just one of long list of brands that are trying these small format service focus concepts. We see it with Ikea, with Target, both testing downsized shops. Casper Mattresses and Indochino, Warby Parker continue to cut ribbons across North America with new stores.

Julia Raymond:
Carol, can you speak a bit on this trend and tell us what you think of Nordstrom’s Local concept?

Carol Spieckerman:
Well, Nordstrom Local is a different animal. I really wouldn’t say that the primary role is as a small format store because it’s not a mini Nordstrom. It’s a completely different solutions and service oriented concept. And also too, you know, you look at the Casper’s and all that, those are really those digitally native brands hanging a shingle. So Nordstrom, to me, is neither one of those things primarily. It really speaks to what I call the movement away from just high tech and toward high touch. And really doubling down on that high touch advantage. Now that’s something that Nordstrom’s already somewhat known for in their main line stores. But this concept just really zeros in on that. Now I’m not as bullish on the taking returns for Macy’s and Kohl’s as I am on the rest of the elements. I don’t think it’s a bad thing.

Carol Spieckerman:
I think it’s kind of no harm, no foul. But I don’t see a lot of crossover there and I don’t see that being necessarily a compelling convenience option for shoppers. But when you look at the fact that they’ve had some time with the LA store, Nordstrom Local, from pundits, gets a lot of backlash and people say, “Well, I don’t get it. I don’t think it’s important.” But they get really great reviews if you’ve been to the store, it’s a really nice concept. It’s a very welcoming, unintimidating, the staff are beautifully trained. And they’ve obviously had some successes with that or they wouldn’t be rolling it out and launching it in Manhattan.

Julia Raymond:
Certainly.

Carol Spieckerman:
But I think it also marks another big shift toward not just always pushing the product but really looking at ways to be helpful and using that as a way of building the brand.

Carol Spieckerman:
And that can be kind of an alien concept to some old-schoolers, “Oh, you’ve got to sell product.” But Nordstrom can sell a lot of product and its main line stores and then it can reach out to new customers, particularly new generations of customers, through these Nordstrom Local locations. So, even if it’s just a PR play, I mean, if they’re not even literally making money on the services in that location or those locations, I think it’s still really important because it’s an important outreach to new generations of shoppers and to shoppers that may not be near a Nordstrom store. Keeping in mind that Nordstrom currently has only like 120 locations, they’ve got to find some way to reach out and touch more potential Nordstrom customers and to onboard a new generation of shoppers. And those are the folks that are really responding to this concept and really are almost thinking of it as Nordstrom doing them a favor. So I think it’s all good.

Julia Raymond:
Yeah, and I like what you said about movement from high tech to high touch, because even though correlation doesn’t mean causation, I think that we could say potentially that’s why you’re seeing a two and a half times spend versus the traditional Nordstrom customer at the local stores.

Carol Spieckerman:
And then the services don’t necessarily even have to be profitable. They just sort of round out the proposition and create that flagship, you know, high touch sensibility.

Julia Raymond:
Trevor, do you think this is potentially a PR play or is this something that we’ll see rolling out more?

Trevor Sumner:
I think it’s interesting. I mean the old joke is that somebody returns a tire to Nordstrom even though they don’t sell tires. And that joke has been true, it’s been true for 20 years.

Trevor Sumner:
And this is almost taking that joke and saying, “Yeah, that’s part of our brand.” Almost the way that Target loves to adopt Tarjay, right? Be part of that kind of cultural zeitgeist about what your brand is about. And so it’s a little bit gimmicky, but I think it’s cute, I think it’s endearing, I think it plays into the notion of what’s different about Nordstrom versus some of their competitors. I like it. I mean, obviously, it’s piggybacking on some of the other trends such as being able to take returns from Amazon at Kohl’s. Obviously Amazon’s a much bigger player and returns are much harder because you don’t naturally have a place to go, unlike doing a return at Macy’s, for example.

Trevor Sumner:
So I think it’s interesting, I think it’s fun. And I think that the idea around bundling services, alteration, styling tips really ingratiates and builds a brand towards Nordstrom. And I think that high touch service aspect is an area that people are looking for as a differentiation from low cost goods or goods that can be found anywhere else. So if you can augment that, you can charge a premium. I think this is extremely interesting.

Trevor Sumner:
The big question to me is why such a small scale, right? As if you look at some of the other things that we’re talking about, you’re talking about mass rollout, even Macy’s growth 150. They’re quickly going to 150 stores or JCPenney’s doing 100 stores with their outdoor concepts. Why three stores in New York? New York is an ideal type of demographic in terms of they looked at markets where people were reluctant to go to multiple places because traveling is hard in New York because carrying bags between shops and you could be going long distances. LA because anybody’s whose ever driven in LA knows.

Julia Raymond:
Yeah.

Trevor Sumner:
Right? So how scalable is this concept and how are they looking at it to go beyond New York and LA and through the rest of the company, or the country, in a way that alters the perception of Nordstrom holistically and drives top and bottom line growth. That, I think, is the big question. In the meantime, I think it’s very PR-ish, very brand supportive, and I think they’re probably learning lessons. But to me, to take two years to go from the first instantiation to an expansion strategy is a long time. And it brings up some questions to me about whether they’re really looking at this in an expansive way.

Julia Raymond:
And I’m curious as to whether the app or the website integrates with the inventory available in the local stores, since it seems to be more of a curated offering and definitely a different scale.

Carol Spieckerman:
They’re using a bit of a hub and spoke model, in some cases, to where they can literally go and pull product from a local Nordstrom store.

Julia Raymond:
That would make sense.

Trevor Sumner:
Yeah.

Trevor Sumner:    
And additionally, you know, just opening up local stores, studies show have a 38% boost in eCommerce revenues. So part of this could be just really about having a local presence, providing local services. You don’t need to make money in-store because you’ll see it online. So I think it’s interesting, but again, a couple stores here and there aren’t going to change your eCommerce outlook. So they need to be much more aggressive and much more expansive in their vision.

Carol Spieckerman.:
I’ll just say as a slight counterpoint to that, it used to be that anytime a retailer launched a new concept, there was a rollout plan. And they would usually even publicize it, “Okay, we’re going to start with this many locations, then we’re going to roll out this many. And then this many months later we’re going to roll out this many.” And everybody got used to that. But things have changed really dramatically to where not every concept, even if it’s successful, has to scale up in order to serve a purpose.

Carol Spieckerman: 
So, I do believe that Nordstrom Local can be beneficial to Nordstrom even if it doesn’t go large scale. I mean, already Nordstrom is not a particularly large scale retailer. You know, they do a lot with a little, at least compared to a lot of their competitors. I think that they could keep it at two or three locations, four locations, learn a lot about urban shoppers, learn a lot about new generations of shoppers. Have that outreach that, yes, drives customers to digital, as Trevor pointed out. And you know, have a nice story to tell about it. I don’t think it has to be in hundreds of locations in order to be successful.

Trevor Sumner:
I think that’s an interesting point.

Trevor Sumner:  
And I agree that one of the things that is being more adopted within the retail industry is the notion of kind of agile development and strategy where you learn quickly and adjust your tactics. And so you’re not set in stone with the two to three month store plan, or sorry, two to three year store planning cycle. And I think that’s wise, to learn as fast as you can, to adapt your tactics based upon what you’ve learned.

Trevor Sumner:
When we’ve talked to clients at perch, we mandate to them that they do 10 or 20 stores minimum just because single data points, basically, are only useful in qualitative data aspects. And I think that’s the case here, where you’re getting qualitative feedback, which might be extraordinarily valuable, but it’s Los Angeles and New York. So again, not necessarily as applicable to the nationwide strategy. I think the next litmus test, if this were a market research or qualitative feedback cycle, and that was part of the purpose, where are they going to do that next outside of some of the bigger urban cities? Where do they do that in a way that they get a more holistic view of the shopper? Or maybe, again, this could be just a value that’s similar to a pop up or similar to a PR brand strategy, which can absolutely add value. But I don’t think will change the trajectory of Nordstrom holistically.

Julia Raymond:
Well, I do agree Trevor, I think that’s a good point about the qualitative data. It’s definitely probably not a big enough sample size to have any data insights that would apply nationwide. But maybe this was a pilot where they’ll be able to fine tune the training that they have with those Nordstrom Local employees and be able to roll out even better programs to the stores that are existing across the U.S.

Julia Raymond:   
Carol, Trevor thank you so much for being on The Rundown this week. I really enjoyed hearing all of your insights and thoughts on these three news pieces and I hope to have you on the show again.

Carol Spieckerman: 
Look forward to it. Thank you, Julia.

Trevor Sumner:
Yeah, thank you. This was wonderful.